ON DK CARGO MASHOUT: georgeRSQ - Yesterday at 6:12 PM ok so from what i can tell cargo throw has pretty much it's own whole system for mashing out cheater griffin - Yesterday at 6:12 PM dk is so stupid georgeRSQ - Yesterday at 6:13 PM time does nothing to help (he will hold u forever with no mash) and it takes (percent * 0.08) + 14 mash inputs to escape cheater griffin - Yesterday at 6:14 PM is it easier to harder to mash out of than normal grab georgeRSQ - Yesterday at 6:16 PM harder at zero but relatively easier as percent goes up i think cheater griffin - Yesterday at 6:16 PM chills georgeRSQ - Yesterday at 6:17 PM like at 100% unless they are pummelling 4+ times on the regular grab (cuz time helps) then cargo will be easier to mash out of but also it seems (again this is not tested super thoroughly) like entering the cargo resets ur mash so if he pummels then cargos the mash during pummel won't help ON MASHING IN GENERAL georgeRSQ - 04/06/2024 12:07 PM mash quarter circle between two CORNERS (e.g., NE->SE, not N -> E) YON#371 - 04/06/2024 12:07 PM does the direction u roll the stick in matter? like cw/ccw georgeRSQ - 04/06/2024 12:07 PM preferably both corners where your DI will be non-shit for any unreactable throw they have georgeRSQ - 04/06/2024 12:08 PM also c-stick doesnt count idk how known that is lemon - 04/06/2024 12:09 PM I roll the grey stick and mash axy wit my thumb georgeRSQ - 04/06/2024 12:09 PM you need to cross an axis to get a mash input iirc so basically wank di across either x or y axis between two corners then roll ur face on buttons [NOTE: you can get only one button and one control stick mash input each frame, and during pummel hitstun you will get no credit for control stick mash and a max of 1 button mash] ON USING LOTS OF GECKO CODES IN DOLPHIN Top 10 Skill in Melee - 04/02/2024 2:50 PM @georgeRSQ Is there any way to increase the gecko code memory max for the version of dolphin slippi uses georgeRSQ - 04/02/2024 3:47 PM not a great way that i know of you can disable some of the default codes (in game delay is a big ass code that can be compensated by launching through netplay window 2018-style) you can use Melee Code Manager and the like to apply some codes via DOL which i think (but am not certain) will not cause problems for most gecko codes georgeRSQ - 04/02/2024 3:54 PM there's also an alternative code handler (use codehandleronly instead of the default Sys\codehandler.bin) that significantly increases the space you have for codes but idk if it would require a full rebuild, nor if it would break other stuff so short answer - "not afaik, but there are some possibilities and i am not super knowledgeable about such things" Top 10 Skill in Melee - 04/02/2024 4:01 PM sounds good georgeRSQ - 04/02/2024 4:12 PM UP, Dan Salvato, TauKhan all probably decent ppl to ping on social media if the duct tape i suggested doesn't hack it :p ON CROUCH PS BUG coriamon CORI#556 - 03/22/2024 10:10 AM I think having “easier power shields” on Marth and samus from crouch is pretty relevant Malo#685 - 03/22/2024 10:10 AM I haven't watched the cdk video on yoshi parry in a while Marth powershield is pretty broken kirby dittos: 4-1 vs Farooqui - 03/22/2024 10:10 AM Yoshi is definitely top 1 in the scenario you described, but doesn't have the omnipresence like we described Malo#685 - 03/22/2024 10:11 AM Other crouch powershields are strong but marths is actually just not working as intended georgeRSQ - 03/22/2024 10:11 AM marth roy and samus all have the actual bugged crouch ps Malo#685 - 03/22/2024 10:11 AM Samus too? Dang I knew marth and roy had it georgeRSQ - 03/22/2024 10:11 AM samus just has a big ass crouch hurtbox anyway so its not as good iirc PUFF ROLLOUT DOCUMENTATION ROLLOUT DOCUMENTATION 0.3 velocity + 0.09 velocity per frame of charge beyond the 16 frame startup. Maximum 4.20 velocity. All velocity falls off by 0.1 in the air. -The initial velocity of your rollout is your max velocity during the rollout -Holding a direction gives acceleration of 9/200ths of your speed in the pre-turnaround direction AT THE TIME YOU MADE THE TURNAROUND INPUT, per frame. This value doesn't seem to change based on analog stick value, as long as its in the turnaround direction. -You cannot fall off ledge while holding the other direction, even if its a tilt input at the last minute while going top speed. -Accelerating in the direction of your velocity for 6 frames will cause you to immediately jump to the initial/max velocity in that direction (i.e., once you actually start moving the other way during a turnaround, you will snap to max velocity that direction in 6 frames) -The initial rollout lasts 106 frames? I think. -A turnaround within the first 60 frames will make the move go for (turnaround input frame % 15)*2 + 90 frames in total. I would GUESS that the reason this is wavy is because of some shit the move checks in intervals of 15f, but it's whacky either way. -If more than 1 turnaround has been performed, the move will terminate at 91 frames regardless of the previous rules. When it ends the move reduces your momentum and goes into a 32 frames endlag, which also puts you in freefall if you roll off an edge during it. DISCUSSION RE: "SIMPLICITY" AND SPECULATION ABOUT RPS AND EV CONCEPT IN NEUTRAL KirbyKaze - 02/29/2024 9:43 AM Thoughts on the "Simplify Neutral" video I posted a while back... Sheik, Marth & Falcon are top tiers largely because they're good at all three elements of the positional RPS system that runs along the game's attack-block-grab RPS system. Because those three are characterized by having the ability to respond to the opponent's actions and situating themselves in the counterpoint to the opponent's choice of undershoot, overshoot, or whiff-punish (or grab-attack-shield/crouch). Fox Falco and Puff conversely are top tiers because they dominate two areas of the triangle (while having the ability to do all three). Fox is overshoot & whiff punish Falco is overshoot & undershoot Puff is whiff punish & undershoot This is basically why I disagree with “just run away” vs Luigi as a plan. Because he's a god at overshoots (most long WD characters are) and undershoots (most characters with insane tilts & smashes are) but what he sucks at is whiff punishing. He can't deal with someone using hitboxes with low lag & high precision spacing because his DD sucks and he can't jump around those attacks either. And WD is too committal. This is also why IMO Falco and Marth are Fox's toughest matchups (historically). They offer the best balance of strong overshooting + kill clock vs his physics & punish style. It's also why a lot of the most successful Marths vs Foxes aren't the ones that just hide in the corner exclusively, but also have good lunges out of it (e.g. the infamous Mew2king dash attack vs Cody). This also helps us understand why Peach is much better with a turnip; it offers an undershoot & overshoot that leads into pressure and zoning all in one fairly low committal option (when thrown). We can understand a lot about character viability IMO by understanding how a character's biases in the positional system combined with their threats are in the grab-attack-shield/crouch RPS system line up. georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:22 AM love that video + this breakdown of it I'm also interested in the relative effects on future decision making of different types of successes idk that's worded poorly, but I'm thinking like Ganon vs Pika forexample: how does getting hit rarely by Ganon's crappy but instagibbing overshoot shape opponent decision making, as opposed to Pikachu getting a much higher success rate/lesser degree of reversal with chip damage overshoot nairs or dtilts? And, if there is a difference in how players respond (based on experience, I think there is, at least at my low level) - is that difference PURELY psychological, or is there a sound reason why these should be treated as fundamentally different even if their "actual EV" is similar? georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:36 AM Also (sorry for spamming with thoughts on this one) I find the Luigi case to be kind of fun because I think it represents a kind of emotional conflation of "being boring and straightforward" with "running away and avoiding interaction". Any character that is very bad at one of those neutral RPS options will probably have a pretty repetitive and dominant ("lame") gameplan for top tiers, which will just involve exploiting that gap on loop and stymying the occasional pocket methods of the mid/low-tier to pull off the thing their character is bad at. But I think the reason for the perception of "just camp bad characters" is just that people get rewarded for playing boring, and because in their gut "boring" and "campy" are the same concept, they jump to "I should camp in all these MUs". When really hard camping is only the answer to a character whose gap in the RPS is specifically a lack of overshoot options combined with decent-good undershoot and/or whiff-punish. KirbyKaze - 02/29/2024 10:36 AM I call the last one "Jigglypuff" (jk but not fully jk) Also I brought this up as a discussion topic. Thoughts are welcomed georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:38 AM I kinda think Zelda Ganon and Jiggs are lowkey one of those videos of "single concept explained at 1st grader to graduate student level", at least in this sense NenFan18 - 02/29/2024 10:39 AM Rsq do u think ganon is simple georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:39 AM as melee characters go yeah but "as melee characters go" is still very very complicated lol NenFan18 - 02/29/2024 10:40 AM I think there's a lot of other simpler characters It really depends what u define as simple georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:41 AM Also "simple" with not-great or outright bad characters is weird because like, yeah it take 8000 reads to kill a sheik/fox as kirby Which is hard and requires a very sophisticated mental model of your opponent, what they want, how to counter it! NenFan18 - 02/29/2024 10:41 AM So what is simple to u georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:42 AM but fundamentally every mixup kirby is playing is very tractable and doesn't have that many in-game factors or alternatives to weigh i guess the latter piece is usually what i mean by "simple" NenFan18 - 02/29/2024 10:42 AM Simple not in theory then As on general playstyle in most matchups Being not very varied georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:44 AM I guess so. Simple in terms of "situations that look the same can usually be treated the same, and there are few enough decent options to consider that you could feasibly have considered/labbed all of them at some point" so yeah i guess that would be general playstyle/lack of variation NenFan18 - 02/29/2024 10:46 AM Falcon and shiek seem simple then Falco too prob KirbyKaze - 02/29/2024 10:46 AM Falco absoltuely does not conform to simple on that criteria Maybe at mid level Slippi unranked But he's really hard at top level He's very deep and complicated Mirage | MIRA#750 - 02/29/2024 10:47 AM shff laser :Falco: KirbyKaze - 02/29/2024 10:48 AM Which literally have different heights Depending on what you need them to do And the opponent's PS skills Not to mention the different options that open up from one at different spacings >_> Mirage | MIRA#750 - 02/29/2024 10:49 AM run in dair :Falco: cheater griffin - 02/29/2024 10:49 AM [responding to Pika/Ganon EV question] Wut does this even mean KirbyKaze - 02/29/2024 10:50 AM Basically he's saying that people camp in matchups where the opponent doesn't lose to camping because there's a cultural understanding of camping > low tiers Even if that's not mechanically accurate And then cited some reasons for it Namely repetitive play loops that feel boring, that people then link to camping Even if it isn't camping or runaway tl;dr human errorr in evaluation. georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:51 AM Also for the specific thing dan quoted, think a pikachu nair overshoot has a net EV of 0.25 and Ganon fair overshoot has net EV of 1 on success, but Ganon fair succeeds 1/4 as often, is the only reason to treat those option differently because you're "psyched out"? cheater griffin - 02/29/2024 10:51 AM What the fuck is an ev georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:51 AM expected value like if you get 1 stock off a successful fair overshoot but it takes 4 to get a stock with pika or w/e cheater griffin - 02/29/2024 10:52 AM Idk how that can apply to melee at all when u can shield and cc attacks georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:53 AM yeah im just trying to put the math concept in melee terms but im not doing it very well lol Lisan Al-Grape - 02/29/2024 10:53 AM Nah it makes sense kirby dittos: 4-1 vs Farooqui - 02/29/2024 10:53 AM There are different variants of simplicity, it would be best to boil it down into a single aspect that you're trying to encapsulate here Lisan Al-Grape - 02/29/2024 10:53 AM Like, it's harder to land an f-smash against peach than a single down tilt, but the reward is higher kirby dittos: 4-1 vs Farooqui - 02/29/2024 10:54 AM The dynamic of that changes if the Peach player spams tf out of float georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:55 AM yeah exactly, and i guess what im curious about is if there's a good reason to favour/disfavour the f-smash beyond just the straight up expected value of those respective mixup trees kirby dittos: 4-1 vs Farooqui - 02/29/2024 10:56 AM I mean you can look at the move in a vacuum and just look at intangibles like raw frame data, hitbox size, etc Not sure how much it's going to help you though KirbyKaze - 02/29/2024 10:56 AM high, low, front of shield, cross up, ff, etc. georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:57 AM yeah falco is my bane and i think a malamute with 2 weeks training could beat me with him but he is probably the most complicated character in melee still lol KirbyKaze - 02/29/2024 10:58 AM I wouldn't say "most", but he's not easy. Mirage | MIRA#750 - 02/29/2024 10:58 AM shine :Falco: cheater griffin - 02/29/2024 10:58 AM Fox and fslco r both braindead and high iq 100p georgeRSQ - 02/29/2024 10:59 AM fair, I don't know enough abt high level to say. It just seems like the lack of grab combos and reliance on neutral domination lets Falco reduce the game's complexity less than a fox or a sheik ON CONVERTING GAME KNOWLEDGE TO BETTER PLAY VIA HEURISTICS georgeRSQ - 01/12/2023 10:26 AM Obviously I'm much worse at melee than you, but as a cross-discipline principle the most important thing is developing good heuristics cheater griffin - 01/12/2023 10:28 AM What is a heuristic george 自動販売機 - 01/12/2023 10:28 AM What does heuristics mean? georgeRSQ - 01/12/2023 10:28 AM Having a complete understanding of situations is useful but doesnt translate directly into good split second decision making - you need an intermediate lab/thinking stage of translating that extensive knowledge into like a simpler, core decision making loop that maximizes decision making relative to mental load Heuristics are like rules of thumb or estimates 自動販売機 - 01/12/2023 10:28 AM I have to lab… georgeRSQ - 01/12/2023 10:31 AM I guess what I'm saying is that it's good to build up a good knowledge of situations and shit but then consciously simplify it and pack it down for use in game situations A NIFTY COMBO doc can fthrow fsmash marth on di in TIL in like the 40s range and super frame tight so not practically useful idt but neat trivia POWERSHIELDED PROJECTILE STALING Selecao9 - 03/19/2024 9:58 PM Another dumb question from me but does power shielding lasers cause staling on them? I powershield it and it hits them I assume would but if i powershield and he avoids it then no? Selecao9 - 03/19/2024 9:59 PM I could be completely wrong tho One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 03/19/2024 10:00 PM this is a veryyyy fun melee quirk actually hi ben btw Cecil(CECI#482) - 03/19/2024 10:00 PM Doesn't it cause staling on your neutral-B? One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 03/19/2024 10:00 PM it stales YOUR version of the move you reflected yeah exactly cecil ON FALCON DRIFT/SS NAIR Noah SAND#508 - 02/09/2024 11:32 PM drift on any fast character is hard idk if people have some way to practice, for me its just come with playing a while mira(#238) - 02/09/2024 11:32 PM yeah that's fair probs just gotta grind that motion One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 02/09/2024 11:32 PM shield stop nair is very big and worth practicing it is hard to control drift because falcon run makes you go nyoom mira(#238) - 02/09/2024 11:33 PM like doing a nair and trying very hard to get drift One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 02/09/2024 11:33 PM so shield stop lets you get the drift you want Noah SAND#508 - 02/09/2024 11:33 PM yeah almost forgot shield stop with falcon is crazy good something i should be doing more mira(#238) - 02/09/2024 11:33 PM so like dash > shield > instant jump oos nair? Noah SAND#508 - 02/09/2024 11:33 PM ya mira(#238) - 02/09/2024 11:33 PM hmm peculiar never thought of it like that Noah SAND#508 - 02/09/2024 11:33 PM good for micro spacing mira(#238) - 02/09/2024 11:33 PM you just kinda tap ur shield? One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 02/09/2024 11:34 PM yeah ideally you'd shield for only 1 or 2 frames cuz it instantly stops ur momentum then u driftin however u want ON FOX NAIR VS SAMUS CC DSMASH lucas - 02/02/2024 9:39 AM Good post but I'm like 80% sure latest possible nair into shine onto cc'ing samus beats d smash One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 02/02/2024 9:48 AM if you hit the clean nair as late as possible, fox wins by 1 frame (nair is stale) or ties (nair in unstale), i'm pretty sure but then you have to jump into a crouch samus with no hitbox out till the last frame ON FOX USMASH ON SHIELD BEING FUCKING STUPID One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 12/19/2023 9:12 PM this sometimes isnt even possible with DK/ganon because this game is evil definitely isnt possible with light shield Saul Badguy (AOI#710) - 12/19/2023 9:13 PM death lightshield i get it One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 12/19/2023 9:14 PM its like equal in frames though so i guess just doing at as an execution test would be fine? like foxes arent usually gonna shine right after whiff upsmash anyway ON PUFF FTHROW [Drolian asks about a clip of Puff f-throw behaving weirdly] One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 11/28/2023 3:01 PM pretty sure its actually a variant of shy guy di! puff fthrow has 2 hitboxes, the first is DI'd so that the second phantoms (straight in i'd guess) BUT while the phantom doesn't give new knockback, it DOES allow DI to be applied again to the initial throw, which gives you a more upward trajectory than puff fthrow could normally give otherwise THE TALE OF DAVID KONG AND REST HITLAG QUIRK One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 11/01/2023 6:24 PM Yeah rest hitlag is so long you can SDI it down when ur already on the ground because you're in hitlag for 10+ frames so ur ECB unlocks and you become "airborne" [NOTE: This is also true of many electric moves (Ganon stomp, Falcon knee, Zelda fair/bair) and any move that does 24 or more damage] davidd - 11/01/2023 6:26 PM i thought suk unlocks and not ecb was i lied to One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 11/01/2023 6:26 PM dont even fucking try with me david davidd - 11/01/2023 6:26 PM ASDKLJASKDLJASLKDJASLSDJ try what... One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 11/01/2023 6:26 PM you think this is amateur hour you think im just some fucken provincial off the street smh my head davidd - 11/01/2023 6:27 PM i thought there was a chance One Punch (w/ fadeback) Man - 11/01/2023 6:27 PM u are a boofus man davidd - 11/01/2023 6:28 PM :quilbur: